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Re: [ProgSoc] ipod battery



On 6/15/06, John Elliot <jj5@xxxxxxx> wrote:
Andrew Halliday wrote:
> A University education is what you make it.

I'm just curious Andi, but have you actually had an IT job?
I.e. have you been responsible for writing software which businesses
rely on in order to support their operations?

I'm curious, because without such experience, then perhaps you are
speaking from a position of profound ignorance?

I am not speaking from a position of profound ignorance. And yes, I have had an IT job. I've had several. From Systems Administrator to Network Administrator to Hardware Tech. to Sales Exec to Technical Support to Tutor and Lab Assistant. I have 2 years of fulltime experience and an additional 3 of fulltime equivalent experience as a result of parttime work.

You can say "it's what you make it" about anything. So, in the context
of education, what is it specifically about a 'university' education
that you believe is significantly worthwhile? To what can you compare
it? Myles already offered his opinion, for example, that one can become
well-educated by reading (specifically by reading material available on
the internet (although I personally believe that books are orders of
magnitude more valuable)).

Just being a reader limits you in engaging other people and hearing their ideas and opinions. Working with people within an academic environment, especially in practicals (more relevant for me now doing biology and geology rather than IT) allows you access and use equipment to do things that you probably wouldn't be able to do at home (or more accurately, afford to do at home). Whilst books are useful resources, University gives the opportunity to educate you through a combination of practical experience, theoretical study and through learning from your peers through their perspectives and guidance. e.g. "Hey here have a look at this book/website/article it's really interesting" and then have a follow up discussion on said topic. In short, it allows students to interact and learn from each other without all the time and cost constraints of learning on the job in a business environment.

Do you think you would survive for very long in the IT industry without
a sincere career-long investment in professional development? I.e. do
you suppose that once you've made an upfront investment by acquiring
your university education that you will be able to rest on your laurels
and happily find employment in the industry over the course of your
career? (I realise this is somewhat hypothetical, given your recent
admission that you do not intend to pursue a career in IT.)

No. I'm an advocate of what people call "life-long learning". No matter what I do I'll be constantly studying and keeping abreast of changes in whatever field I'm in. I'm not some schill that's been popped out of a degree factory John. I am motivated and capable of original, creative thought.

How do you feel about the fact that there are people which you refer to
as 'hand bags' who are graduating with the same credentials as yourself?

Angry.

Don't you feel that this commoditises your skills?

Yes.

That is, if you rely
on your degree to differentiate yourself or to prove your 'value
potential' to prospective employers in a global marketplace, then aren't
you concerned that your perceived value might be being watered down?

Yes, but I don't do that. I think my degree is worthless unless I am there to explain what I have gotten out of it. A degree is just symbolic of a base set of skills and committment. It's what I say in the interview that matters just as much if not more.

What's a 'graduate' worth, these days? (Ah, straight to unpaid
internship, right?)

Average CompSci graduate (first year out) in Australia was getting $40K plus super in the last financial year. I wouldn't consider myself either average or great, but I was getting more than that.

Only stupid people would be getting into unpaid internships these days
because demand is strong for good graduates. That's why I took
advantage of opportunities at Uni and diversified my experience whilst
still studying.

Regardless of the above, how do you feel about making the trade of your
capital (i.e. your time and money: many years, and tens of thousands of
dollars) in exchange for this form of education?

I can't answer that question because if I am happy and have enough money to live and eat and do what I need to do then I'm OK. Money is not the driving force in my life. Job satisfaction forms a component of said driving force though (for me). I was earning much more studying and tutoring and working parttime within IT jobs than I could have earned in retail so I figure it was a good trade. I made good friends, I got to meet people and do things I wouldn't have expected I'd have been able to do.

Do you feel that there
is some value in this form of education that justifies your outlay, in
comparison, say, to just buying all the text books for your
undergraduate degree and reading them?

Yes. If I had bought all the textbooks I wouldn't have read them. University educates me within a format that I can digest easily. I wouldn't have networked with so many people and thus been able to get my foot in the door with a lot of jobs, I wouldn't have been able to prove that I was worth interviewing unless I had something to prove that I knew at least something with some sort of qualification. If I started up my own business that wouldn't have been a problem I suppose, but I'm not Myles. I have no interest in doing that. I'd rather work for someone else.


If it was posited that it would be necessary for you to make a life-long
commitment to keeping your skills current, regardless of your leading
university education, do you think your initial expenditure of time and
money would be amortised over the course of your career? What value do
you place on several years worth of foregone industry experience and pay?

In the last place I worked my Boss had several industry certs and had read many textbooks. He had 7 years of experience in doing what he he was doing, and yet he was almost incompetent in his understanding of the technologies we were using. He couldn't write a report to save his life. I think people don't realise just how much you miss out on if you choose not to study at Uni. Like I said earlier, it's not for everyone and it shouldn't be expected to be for everyone. If I don't have experience and I don't have anything to prove that I know what I claim to, how can I get a job to begin with? I studied for 4 years. I guarantee you I learnt more studying and working in the industry at the same time than I would have on the job, and that's compared to my entire working history when I think about the opportunities for on the job training or self-education whilst at work.

In answering the above, is your answer based on the observation that
'certification' is a requisite for a foot in many doors?

Yes

That is to say
that it's worth paying to increase your (perceived) opportunities?

Yes

Or,
is it because you sincerely gained skills which made all the difference
during your time at university?

That too.

In answering that last question, what
first-hand basis of comparison is available to you?

See what I wrote above about my last Boss.

With regard to all of the above, what do you think about the
socio-economics implied by the structure of university degrees, the
standard of education they offer (or guarantee),

I'm not quite sure I understand this question. I'll attempt to answer it. I don't think a degree offers a particular standard of education. I think it's a tool, it exposes the graduate to various ideas and concepts and curriculum and experience and opportunities. Every semester these will all vary between graduates. Every semester what graduates have achieved as a result of taking advantage of these various circumstances will vary as well. I think University is an experience. I think this experience is for some a foundation on which to build a career.

and their requirement
for entry into the workforce?

A degree is generally required to enter into a profession. It's a way (but not the only way) of demonstrating dedication, creativity, innovation, initiative and other skills through examples of one's experiences throughout the course.

That is, do you regard yourself as 'buying
a ticket', or 'accruing personal value'?

No, I don't. I think that my degree can only stand in comparison to myself and what I have gotten out of it rather than to others. If it was a technical cert then it would be comparable because it would demonstrate that I know XYZ and so does everyone else who has the cert. Degrees aren't like that.

All interesting questions, I think.

I agree.

Personally I haven't finished my degree (and at this time have no
intention of doing so (not because I don't want to, but because I
perceive it of lesser value than other options presently available to
me, though I'll go back if I find I need to buy a ticket)), so you might
be able to infer how it is that I would answer the above questions. The
primary reason for me is that I simply 'ran out of time'.

I left school when I was in year 10, became a chef, decided that wasn't
for me, finished highschool, got offered a 'cadetship' (whereby I was to
study at UTS part time for two years, then full time for two years,
during the first two years working full time for my sponsor), lost my
cadetship after two years in the misfortunes of politics, entered the IT
workforce, left the IT workforce six months later, went back to
full-time study and part-time 'chefing' for about six months, decided
that I would be better off running my own business, and have been
running my own software development company for the last few years (not
sure how many; at least three).

Like I said about Myles. Entrepreneurs are the kind of people who don't need University education because you accrue very similar experiences through what you do.

Over the period that I've been working for myself I've invested heavily
in professional development. I perceive the most value in books, and
online documentation. (It's important, of course, that one actually
spends time doing *the reading*). As Myles suggested in another thread
recently there is a wealth of information available on the internet
(although, I think Myles might have a tendency to over-value some
forums, and particularly to under-value the time he spends reading
them... ;). Frankly I never perceived university syllabus as 'relevant'
or 'fast-paced' enough to meet the learning demands encountered during
the course of employment in IT.

I have to agree with you on this last point. IT at UTS could have been more intensive.

You might very well go to uni, and then
when you're finished you'll learn what you need to know on the job.

I know. Having been there. That said, having been there my studies provided me with a lot of skills and foundation knowledge that were very very useful and made the basics of my job that much easier, allowing me to get on with more challenging projects.

(That's not to say that you won't learn things at uni. It's just to say
that uni isn't the only place you can learn things, and regardless of
what you learn at uni it won't be 'enough'.)

I totally agree. I do not and never will think of Uni as the only place to get educated. I go there to study for an academic foundation in a field in which I'm interested. And whilst self education might work for IT, I think it would be much harder to do so in the life and earth sciences field. Thus, I'm back at Uni. Everything else I learn through experience and on the job training.

As you correctly pointed out in your message to Myles, there is a way
around the lack of flexibility inherent in an inefficient, rigid, or
malfunctioning bureaucracy. That is, the doors are open for anyone who
is willing to assume the risk to endeavour to create demonstrable value
and make it available in the economy. That is, you don't need a 'ticket'
if there is a means for you to demonstrate your value without it,
provided there is a market for your offerings and you have the capacity
to 'make the sale'.

Exactly. You and Myles chose or ended up, (whatever) doing what you're doing -running your own businesses. This is something I never want to do so I made the obvious choice between the two and went to Uni instead. I agree totally with what you say above though and have respect for you guys putting in the hard work to get where you are today.

Anyway... I don't want to get much more bogged down in this discussion.
When I triggered it with my initial "washing hands" comment, I was
mostly just being flippant and somewhat snide. Many of the conclusions
that one might have been inclined to draw from my meagre utterances are
wrong. I was really just offering a 'koan', that is, something to think
about. I hadn't meant to trigger all this 'thinking out loud', and I
certainly don't think it's reasonable to suggest that it reflects
negatively on me.

I concur.

However I can't continue to commit time to discussing
it, or defending myself from any particular position that anyone
(correctly or incorrectly) infers that I've taken.

Welcome to my world. I agree as well and have the same attitude.

 If you'd like to know
what I think, then I've always aspired to this [1] as my personal
philosophy.

I'm leaning towards adopting it.

My work here is done. ;)

Indeed.
[1] http://hobbes.ncsa.uiuc.edu/desiderata.html


Cheers, Andi.

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