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Re: [ProgSoc] Have you registered to vote yet?



On Wed, 10 Oct 2007, Andrew Robert Halliday wrote:
> On 09/10/2007, at 9:35 PM, jedd wrote:
> > On Tue, 9 Oct 2007, Andrew Halliday wrote:
> >> Not a bad idea =)
> >> If the worlds human population became vegetarian and we stopped the
> >> industrial farming and transport of livestock we would not have a
> >> greenhouse gas (and therefore climate change) problem.
> >
> >  That's a particularly big call.

> My point was that the amount of energy used in growing feed,
> harvesting the feed, transporting the feed, growing and feeding
> animals, transporting the animals, slaughtering the animals,
> processing the animals carcasses and then distributing to wholesalers
> and vendors consumes a whole lot more energy and produces an enormous
> amount of greenhouse gases as a result of the transportation but even
> more so just the animals grunting and farting about.

 Which doesn't really address the problem with the world
 becoming vegetarian - the sustainable production of vegetables
 pretty much requires animals be used within the food
 production system.  There's some ethical cases for vegetarianism,
 but they can swing in either direction.  Health-wise there's not
 much to recommend it.  Food production-wise, there's a lot of
 compelling reasons to stick with an omnivore's diet.

> However 'organic' growing of fresh produce has been demonstrated to
> be even more taxing on the environment in some ways because it is not
> as efficient and the yield is not as high in volume and quality.

 It's interesting that you think this.

 Most of the research I've seen, particularly over the past twenty
 years or so, has put the kibosh on non-organic systems insofar as
 quantity of sustainable yield, environmental impact, and perhaps
 most importantly the quality of the produce.

 I'm sure Monsanto etc have some excellent research that proves Africa
 will starve unless they start buying some GM'd seed and move to an
 industrial monoculture approach, replete with a sign-up to a
 lifetime's supply of glyphosate.

 But I don't think we should be believing them.


> The 
> reason people dispute this last point is because most of the time
> organic food is shipped in very direct routes to the consumer whereas
> conventional industrially farmed food generally deteriorates slightly
> as it moves through the distribution chain to the consumer because of
> the delays involved.

 Actually it's far more complex than that.  It may have more to do
 with the interactions between different plants within the soil, the
 increased vigour of plants that aren't fighting off diseases and pests
 that build up in direct response to the presence of the monoculture
 in the first place.  There may be a case to be made for selection of
 better tasting and healthier varieties (heirloom, open pollinated)
 over and above plants (consider the humble tomato) that are selected
 for industrial-grade agriculture based on their ability to drop
 without bursting.  (There's very few fruit varieties that we get in
 supermarkets, for example, that are the most flavoursome specimens.
 I think mangoes are probably the most notable exception.)

> That said organic food will often seem to taste 
> better. I can't help but wonder if that's a psychological effect
> because we *want* it to taste better.

 Maybe it's simpler than that.  Maybe using varietals that have
 been selected over a few hundred years for their adaptability to
 local conditions, grown organically in biota-rich soil just simply
 taste better.  The fact that research is showing they're better
 for you may, as you suggest, make you feel better from eating
 them .. or maybe you just feel better because they make you feel
 better.   Hmmm.  This is probably how Occam felt.

> >  Trying to set up a food production system in the absence of
> >  animals is a pretty tricky proposition anyway.
>
> Really? I thought we already shipped fresh produce around. Wouldn't
> it be a matter of converting a few refrigerated trucks from shipping
> carcasses to produce?

 When I talk about food production systems, I'm being somewhat
 more holistic than just focussing on the few minutes at the end
 of the process that concerns itself with distribution.  Obviously the
 goal is to reduce that component to as close to zero as possible.

 Consider that a food production system involves the clearing of
 soil of weeds, the on-going control of pests within a crop, the
 return of nutrients to the soil, and so on.  Animals are particularly
 good at servicing the needs of plants, unsurprisingly.

 Jedd.

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