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Re: [ProgSoc] Text editors/Web dev apps for the Mac



On Mon, 24 Sep 2007, Nathan de Vries wrote:
> The Harmony Toolkit project was spawned by the GNU Project based on
> their *external* concerns about KDE.
>
> Would it be wrong to say that KDE (the development community) weren't
> really bothered either way? It certainly seems that way.

 This hypothesis assumes that the KDE community and the GNU
 Project had no crossover at all, and that all people in each of these
 would-be totally disparate groups had the same beliefs (as everyone
 else in their group).

 Clearly this was not the case.

 As to Bryn's observations:
>  A great proof by example that this kind of thing is doomed to fail in
> the gaming sector is that a bookstore as mainstream as Borders is now
> carrying glossy copies of Hoglunds "Exploiting Online Games" on it's
> shelves.  I think we've passed by security by obscurity and are now
> cruising deep in the waters of security by asking nicely to not rip us
> off, please.

 There'll be a significantly different reaction between games for fun
 and games for money.  Crossover games (WoW etc) that move into
 the 'develop characters and sell them' just get pigeon holed into the
 games for money set.

 Games for fun have a far higher cost of entry, as far as trying to
 reverse engineer them far enough that you are able to subvert their
 no-cheating systems.  Games have the advantage there too insofar
 as they can subsequently force patches upon you (in order to continue
 to play online) that can plug discovered holes.  You also have a lot
 of other people watching you, while you play, and keeping you honest,
 at least up to a point.

 Compare and contrast online gambling - where real money is involved,
 the interface is basically http (arguably easier to investigate), you
 only have to stay under the radar of security systems rather than
 real live humans, and really your cheating strategy doesn't need to
 last for very long (long enough to get some cash and move on).

>  As an aside to Raz, I know you understand this stuff better than I
> do, but I am still unconvinced of the argument that using non-Free
> software can be a pro-Free-software action if the developer has made
> the appropriate vague grunting noises. Unless you make them aware that
> your support is conditional upon their continuing migration libre-ward
> ( and you could do that - but I think a lot of KDE users, including
> myself, didn't ),  I think it's more likely to be seen as an
> endorsement of the status quo.

 Consider the earlier reference to non-free BIOS.  The distinction
 between using a non-free BIOS and using a non-free toolkit is a
 curious one .. insofar as it gets less distinct the more you think
 about it.  It may, in other words, be merely a matter of degree,
 with all the inherent laziness that you speak of with regards the
 ethical investment -- the perennial problem about idealism and
 pragmatism.

 Note that your understated assessment -- "vague grunting noises" --
 does not accurately reflect the situation at the time.  There was a
 lot of activity going on that transcended grunts, vague or otherwise.

 As mentioned, Gnome was probably the really loud grunting noise,
 and as sad as it is that we are now stuck with that split, consider
 the benefits to future generations when faced with a similarly
 recalcitrant organisation.  You probably can in fact now just get
 your message across with a vague grunting noise, so long as you
 enunciate the words sun, java, crap, rats, ship, trolltech, gnome
 in there somewhere.

 There's probably something twee to be said here about the purpose
 of some people/actions is merely to serve as a warning to others.

 Actually, that may have been it.

 Jedd.

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